•  This is a response to someone who left a comment on one of my posts. I thought the topic was important enough to put my response into a post on the main page.

For any American who would like to actually read the founding documents of the country you live in, but never have before… there are numerous places this can be done.
One which has a lot of information available for free and in one convenient location is consource.org


To Alice or anyone, I challenge you to look at these two snippets of the US Constitution and the US Declaration of Independence and then read the real document. Search these documents, research the history of the time they were written, search your soul, if these two documents don’t make your heart swell with pride and bring tears to your eyes, for the freedom and wondrous land that we are blessed to call home.

Then before you look elsewhere to complain about what’s wrong with your country, I would humbly suggest you look within yourself and ask yourself why you are not moved by either of these two documents, and what they stand for.

 Has our country become one of the most arrogant Godless nations ever to exist on the planet? Yes. But that is only because far too many, including some of our past, and definitely our current leaders have either not read these two documents, or have forgotten them and what they stand for… the blood that was shed to create them and defend them during the Revolutionary war, the toil of Millions since July 4th 1776 to defend and honor what this nation originally stood for.

The arrogance of Americans that have forgotten what this nation originally stood for, has consumed this nation and turned it into a blighted eyesore, full of greed, arrogance, criminal ill-will towards our fellow-man, and contempt for our Christian heritage.


Link to:My initial post and Alice’s comments

Hello Alice,
Sorry for the time delay in responding to your comment. Things have been crazy around here. Between finals week last week and the fact that Congress has been playing ping-pong with unemployment extensions with the Senate and my unemployment has run out.
First of all, while I appreciate your comments, and appreciate your right to make your comments, I want to inform you that you are completely in error historically, and in regards to the US Constitution.

Don’t feel bad, this misnomer has been spread insidiously by the liberal Anti-Christian agenda.
The truth about the supposed “Separation of Church and State” is that it does not occur anywhere in the Declaration of Independence, the US Constitution, or the Amendments to the US Constitution. (Or for that matter the Federalist papers or the notes of the Constitutional Convention)
Nowhere in any of those founding documents will you ever read the statement “separation of church and state”.

I have read them numerous times; sadly the majority of Americans do not even know what the Declaration of Independence really is or what it really means to the people of the United States of America.
A fairly recent poll told us that less than 28% of Americans could tell what the three branches of the United States Government are, the same ones which have stood since our founding in 1776. (I find this polls outcome even more disturbing and sad, than the 13% polled that still believe the sun revolves around the earth)
The section of the Constitution in question, is really discussing the fact that under the tyranny of King George telling those Christians living in America and back in England, how they could worship, and when they could worship.
They are standing up to the tyranny of King George and his morally corrupt government.

The only time that the words “separation of church and state” have ever been mentioned in historical documents would be in the Jefferson letters ,  from a Baptist minister to Thomas Jefferson. In that letter, this minister told Jefferson that the Constitution should be formed in a way that never again, would a ruler or government tell the Christians or the church as a whole how, when, and why they should worship. The intention of this letter was to remind Mr. Jefferson of what he already knew, that we as a people left England to form a nation where everyone would have the right to worship as they chose and the government would be separated from the church, not vice versa.

One does not have to be a Judeo-Christian in nature or belief to appreciate the freedom that this affords. In fact if you are an atheist or agnostic, you of all poeple should applaud the nature of this truth. You as well, are free to practice your religious beliefs (or lack therof) freely because of the true meaning of the section refering to “Congress shall enact no laws”.
The current practice by those in Congress, the Senate, the Judicial system, and the Whitehouse is something which was never in the US Constitution and was never intended by the US Constitution, or the founding fathers.

The only use of the words separation of Church and State, was then and is now, worded to keep the government out of the affairs of the church corporately, or individuals rights to their beliefs or choice not to believe.

It was Not intended to keep Christian activities, and principles out of the government (Such as nativity scenes on City property).

To invoke the latter would be at best a foolish logical fallacy, since the US Government was totally formed and founded, on Christian scripture and Christian principles. Thomas Jefferson himself said “Without God, this Nation cannot stand!” 

The majority of the founders of this nation were Christian by faith and profession.

Even the ones that weren’t, knew how important it was to live a moral life based on biblical foundations (not whatever feels good do it). Also, those that weren’t of the Christian faith, knew that if one day, Christians lost their right to assemble and worship freely as they chose, then one day their beliefs and rights would be attacked as well. (This very thing has played out over the centuries in Russia, China, Germany, Korea, Muslim Nations, and every other nation that has controlled thought and religion of its peoples)
Sadly, too many in power in the current US Government, have done all they could within their power to remove God from the face of America and American Government.

Anyone who has ever read the actual history of America, and the words of the founding fathers, and the actual words of the Declaration of Independence, and the US Constitution would know this. However, since only 28% (or less) actually know what the three branches of the US Government are, it is brightly, and glaringly obvious that very few have done that. 

Instead they listen to what they are told by the liberal elite, who are trying to destroy the fabric of this nation and turn it into something it was never intended to be.

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Comments
  1. Doug Indeap says:

    The phrase “separation of church and state” is but a metaphor to describe the underlying principle of the First Amendment and the no-religious-test clause of the Constitution. That the phrase does not appear in the text of the Constitution assumes much importance, it seems, only to those who may have once labored under the misimpression it was there and later learned they were mistaken. To those familiar with the Constitution, the absence of the metaphor commonly used to describe one of its principles is no more consequential than the absence of other phrases (e.g., Bill of Rights, separation of powers, checks and balances, fair trial, religious liberty) used to describe other undoubted Constitutional principles.

    Some try to pass off the Supreme Court’s decision in Everson v. Board of Education as simply a misreading of Jefferson’s letter to the Danbury Baptists–as if that is the only basis of the Court’s decision. Instructive as that letter is, it played but a small part in the Court’s decision. Perhaps even more than Jefferson, James Madison influenced the Court’s view. Madison, who had a central role in drafting the Constitution and the First Amendment, confirmed that he understood them to “[s]trongly guard[] . . . the separation between Religion and Government.” Madison, Detached Memoranda (~1820). He made plain, too, that they guarded against more than just laws creating state sponsored churches or imposing a state religion. Mindful that even as new principles are proclaimed, old habits die hard and citizens and politicians could tend to entangle government and religion (e.g., “the appointment of chaplains to the two houses of Congress” and “for the army and navy” and “[r]eligious proclamations by the Executive recommending thanksgivings and fasts”), he considered the question whether these actions were “consistent with the Constitution, and with the pure principle of religious freedom” and responded: “In strictness the answer on both points must be in the negative. The Constitution of the United States forbids everything like an establishment of a national religion.”

    While there may be reason to quibble about this or that bit of evidence about the religiosity of various founders, I agree with you that many of them were religious and Christian. Care should be taken, though, not to make too much of the founders’ individual religious beliefs. In assessing the nature of our government, the religiosity of the various founders, while informative, is largely beside the point. Whatever their religions, they drafted a Constitution that plainly establishes a secular government on the power of the people (not a deity) and says nothing substantive of god(s) or religion except in the First Amendment where the point is to confirm that each person enjoys religious liberty and that the government is not to take steps to establish religion and another provision precluding any religious test for public office. This is entirely consistent with the fact that some founders professed their religiosity and even their desire that Christianity remain the dominant religious influence in American society. Why? Because religious people who would like to see their religion flourish in society may well believe that separating religion and government will serve that end and, thus, in founding a government they may well intend to keep it separate from religion. It is entirely possible for thoroughly religious folk to found a secular government and keep it separate from religion. That, indeed, is just what the founders did.

    The First Amendment embodies the simple, just idea that each of us should be free to exercise his or her religious views without expecting that the government will endorse or promote those views and without fearing that the government will endorse or promote the religious views of others. By keeping government and religion separate, the establishment clause serves to protect the freedom of all to exercise their religion. Reasonable people may differ, of course, on how these principles should be applied in particular situations, but the principles are hardly to be doubted. Moreover, they are good, sound principles that should be nurtured and defended, not attacked. Efforts to undercut our secular government by somehow merging or infusing it with religion should be resisted by every patriot.

    Wake Forest University recently published a short, objective Q&A primer on the current law of separation of church and state. I commend it to you. http://www.adl.org/religious_freedom/WFU-Divinity-Joint-Statement.pdf

    • The one thing that you still seem to miss, either on purpose or on accident is that the forming of the first ammendment was to keep the government from getting involved in the church, not to keep the church out of the government.
      The semantics of whether it was the Baptist minister to Jefferson as history proves to be true or Jefferson to the Baptist church, does not matter a hill of beans. The intent of the founding fathers and the words of the first ammendment was to keep the government out of the church and the business of the church or the desires and goals of individuals and the church. Pure and Simple.
      Anyone who tries to deny that is blind to the truth of the matter.

      Anyone who has ever read the federalist papers, Maddisons notes of the Con Con, and the Constitution and the 1st Ammendment to the Constitution or anything else knows that.
      Anyone who denies that is trying to change history, I don’t care who it is.

    • And I’m sorry but the Religious beliefs of the country’s founders are at the very core, the breath of this nation.
      If the founding father’s had not left the tyranny of King George and Great Britain to live in religious freedom this nation would never have been founded. The Christian principle is the very heartbeat that began this nation.
      The Christian morals and principals that founded this nation are what has always set it apart.
      To be perfectly exact this country isn’t even a Constitutional Republic it is a Theist Republic because it was founded on, staked out, and built on Christianity.
      People didn’t just leave England because they were a bunch of whiners. They wanted to be able to worship Christ.
      There is no way to read the Declaration of Independance without realizing that their Christian faith was at the very core of the creation of America.

      • sonsothunder says:

        Very true;
        And the ones who are trying so hard to change what those documents read, are doing so BECAUSE they Do know what they read. Just as they are trying to stop Sara Palin from broadcasting her own television show. She must know more than they want disclosed BEFORE the truth behind their ultimate Globalizing Gulf Bombs, fall upon too many of the general “Puppets” ears. They really don’t have anything to worry about there though, in my opinion, for as it is written , those who refuse to see will follow lies to their own demise rather than to hear sound doctrine, or truth from those that they hate. Another thing just happened in congress, and if the bill goes through, the presidential administration will have the freedom , without clearing anything with the senate, or congress, to shut the Internet off, for 4 months at a time. Some folks just can’t see the light for the darkness they hold in hatred within themselves I guess. When they are without Internet…do you think that they may get a clue, from the glimpse of what has been happening?

        Hey Brad, by the way,I’m not claiming any prophetic prowess or anything, but, if you get a chance to come to my site, re-read the Both Parties Lose ( Oil Volcano ) story that I wrote two weeks back, in a somewhat Tragicomedic way; Before the hurricane hits full force in the Gulf.
        God Bless
        paul

    • Just because a court incorrectly interpreted the constitution doesn’t mean that was within the bounds of their jobs. The Supreme court has overstepped their boundaries as set up under the constitution, however, and unfortunately nothing has been done about it because since Woodrow Wilson the President and the Congress/Senate have overstepped their bounds based on the words of the original Constitution. Don’t base your opinion on what the Supreme court says or what some College says. Base your opinion on history and what the historic documents say.
      The President’s job is to uphold the Constitution. The judicial branch is to judge the law as written and backed up by the Constitution. It is not the Supreme Courts job to interpret the Constitution and the laws as written, however that is what they have been doing for the last 60 years.

      The first ammendment also has nothing to do with the ability for everyone to practice their religion. It’s focus was what King George had done in England and continued to do after they crossed the sea to the colonies.
      The first ammendment was added to prevent that from ever happening ever ever ever again. Sadly it is happening all over again.

      Everyone practicing their religion is a by product of the 1st ammendment not the protection or goal of the first ammendment.
      I will fight to the death for a Budhist or Muslim’s right to practice their religion no matter how much I disagree with their religion. But that is not the focus of the First Ammendment and never was.
      The principles of the first ammendment had nothing whatsoever to do with a judge putting the 10 commandments behind his chair, or about having a nativity scene on the front lawn of a city, county, state, or federal building.

  2. Doug Indeap says:

    I agree with you that the religious and philosophical views of the founding generation necessarily underlie and, at least in some sense, are reflected by the laws enacted by the government they founded. Given the republican nature of our government, it is only natural and expected that the laws enacted by our government largely reflect Christianity’s dominant influence in our society. That said, I would stop short of saying that Christianity–or, even more generally, theism–is an inherent aspect of our government. To the extent any such claim seeks to “establish” some form of theism as an inherent aspect of our government, it is antithetical to the constitutional principle of separation of religion and state.

    While some draw meaning from the reference to “Nature’s God” and “Creator” in the Declaration of Independence and try to connect that meaning to the Constitution, the effort, I think, is baseless. Apart from the fact that these references could mean any number of things (some at odds with the Christian idea of God), there is no “legal” connection or effect between the two documents. Important as the Declaration is in our history, it did not operate to bring about independence, nor did it found a government. The colonists issued the Declaration not to effect their independence, but rather to explain and justify the move to independence that was already well underway. Nothing in the Constitution depends on anything said in the Declaration. Nor does anything said in the Declaration purport to limit or define the government later formed by the free people of the former colonies; nor could it even if it purported to do so. Once independent, the people of the former colonies could choose whatever form of government they deemed appropriate. They were not somehow limited by anything said in the Declaration. Sure, they could take it as inspiration and guidance if, and to the extent, they chose–or they could not. They could have formed a theocracy if they wished–or, as they ultimately chose, a secular government founded on the power of the people (not a deity) by a Constitution that says nothing substantive of god(s) or religion except in the First Amendment where the point is to confirm that each person enjoys religious liberty and that the government is not to take steps to establish religion and another provision precluding any religious test for public office.

    Lest there be any doubt, shortly after the founding, President John Adams (a founder) signed, with the unanimous consent of the Senate (comprised in large measure of founders), the Treaty of Tripoli declaring, in pertinent part, “the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion.” Note too that the Constitution provides that treaties, apart from the Constitution itself, are the highest law of the land.

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